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good morning from new york i'm chris haynes. "usa today" has obtained a draft of the white house proposal for immigration reform which would allow undocumented immigrants to become permanent citizens within eight years. republican senator marco joub of florida said the proposal would be quote dead on arrival. and michael jordan the greatest basketball player ever to play the game turns 50 years old today. right now i'm going by professor of law, and sister mary hughes. and national correspondent for the american conservative magazine and the author from "grace on the margins." people around the world shocked on monday by the sudden announcement that pope benedict xvi would step down at the end of the month. only a handful of popes have renounced their office. pope benedict xvi is the first
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to resign in 600 years. when benedict became the pope in 2005 he was 78 years old. now at 85 age seems to be the reason for his resignation. speaking in latin on monday the pope said quote after having repeatedly examined my conscience before god i have dome the certainty that my strengths due to an advanced age are no longer suited to an adequate exercise of the petrine. benedict's successor faces several challenges both in the u.s. and around the world. seminary enrollment in the u.s. has fallen at a staggering rate also in europe. church attendance is down. the church's center of gravity has moved to africa and the church works through the legacy of widespread cover-up of rape by priests a cover-up that revealed institutional failures. given all this how exactly
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should we judge pope benedict's brief papacy and what's next for the world's largest and oldest institutions. i have to say, i was raised in the church, i was baptized in the church, my father was a jesuit seminaryian. i think my first question, i want to talk about the resignation itself because what i find fascinating is ratzinger is associated with the liberals, viewed later on as a reactionary. and yet his final act the final act for which he's known is this remarkably modern fit. here's this traditionalist who has done the most modern thing imaginable which is basically to say i'm too old to do the job which seems to me like a very
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wise common sensical thing but radical given the history. >> i would say it's radical and i would say it's going to be very interesting to see how he performs in his post-papacy to establish a precedent for this. >> i imagine a jimmy carter sort of thing. >> "the onion" had a good article about him joining a catholic think tank. it will be very interesting because i think there is potentially -- i think it may be modern and it may be good and it may be something inevitably was going to happen as our lives are being extended into senility and things we're not used to. there could be a danger with the idea that okay popes can resign. should they resign if they become unpopular. there's talk in england of, you know, the crown skipping a generation because of reasons of
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popularity. once you establish that you basically give yourself over to democratization in the church. >> the horror. >> it is a horror. >> we have bishops being chosen by the faithful. unthink scrabble today but more traditional than the current system. >> that's interesting. >> if you look at religious communities they long had a tradition generally of not electing someone for life. it's a period of time. you come. you give your best gifts. then someone comes in with different gifts to either continue your legacy or to reshape it in another way. i think it's very promising to look at something like this. it allows the spirit to move into the realm differently. >> how should we judge? i think the question -- people are fascinated with the catholic church because it's one of the world's oldest institutions. historically one of the world's most powerful institution.
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it still exerts a pull over our imagination for catholics and noncatholics. when news came what's the criteria to talk about a papacy. how do you judge a papacy. what are the metrics if we're conducting pope benedict's exit interview. how do you judge it? >> i would judge it by the state of the church and the health of the church. i think it's fair to say at this point this is not a healthy time for the roman catholic church particularly in the united states where you have 77 million catholic, two-thirds of them no longer go to church regularly. >> ding, ding, ding. >> that's very common. half of that number don't even call themselves catholic any more. we're definitely in a crisis mode. i think there's been too much stress on the pelvic zone issues and that's all folks are hearing about the church and so they almost have been made into an idol those teaching, how you
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feel about those teachings is determining whether you're in or out. >> is the focus on culture war issue, pelvic zone issues as you talk about in the realm of birth control, premarital sex, gay and lesbian relationships is that driven by a press that can only view this through this political lens or driven by a church putting emphasis on it? >> there's a little bit of both. i go -- people that follow me on twitter know i go to a latin traditional mass with the most militant type of priest. and we have maybe one sermon -- >> militant traditional. >> yes. but they have the most, you know, we get one homily every two years about pelvic zone issues. it may be discussed in catechism class. most of the focus is have faith in jesus christ. it's not like going to a pro life activism course or
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something like that when you go to mass even at the most traditional catholic parishes. i think there's a way the media has given a set of moral issues that are contested in our broad culture and everyone is in a sense licensed to have an opinion on them. >> which as it should be. >> right. >> a lot of licensing for opinions. >> there could be in another age we would be debating different moral issues and the church's position on something else like slavery or usury or something else would become the focus. people would say i hate the poeps th popes they condemn commerce and commercial progress in the united states. that's why for the noncatholic or the catholic that's away from the church they experience the church through the media. here's a sweaty fat priest telling me what to do with my sex life. >> i'm sitting right here.
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>> you know, i think that some of it is media. certainly benedict has been the greenest pope. he installed solar panels on the residence. he's done remarkable thing. but it's fair we have to look at the church's pocketbook where it is spending its money. we learned in the last year during the election season it funneled millions of dollars to the knights of columbus and the knights of columbus in turn used to fund national organization for marriage. so much of the money is being spent on the agenda. >> and u.s. confidence of bishops they were outspoken on affordable care act decision, mandated birth control, there's a lawsuit. that's not a fabrication of the media. that was a political battle. that's their belief system and they have every right to participate in the legal system like everyone else does but i don't think you can say that fight was picked by -- >> it's an interaction with the media. last night at dinner someone said how do you get along with
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chris hayes. we don't agree about much. actually we agree with 98%. we don't have a controversy over 98% of thing we agree about. just orthodox catholicism is liberal 98% of the time. so is the media. then there's 2% where there's a clash. and that's also going to define how the bishops spend their money, whether defending it or not that's where their money is going to be spent because they don't need to spend money to get msnbc to talk about global warming. >> there wasn't wall to wall coverage from 1978 on when the u.s. conference of bishops was saying we need universal health care. that wasn't a watch out america these bishops are coming to give you health care. so there is an element where it's just, we focus it -- really based on pre-existing partisan
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narratives and then try to apply to it the whole church. >> i want to talk about something you talked about the declining membership issue not just in u.s. but jump and latin america, evangelicals are going. a question about how much should a pope be held responsible for that or even think about that. you're not selling a product at some level. so if the metrics are that people are leaving the flock, you know i guess the question is should you be judged by that? what does you want say about the church that membership is declining and what does it mean for the church's future right after this break. n altima and reimagined nearly everything in it? gave it greater horsepower and class-leading 38 mpg highway... advanced headlights... and zero gravity seats? yeah, that would be cool. introducing the completely reimagined nissan altima. it's our most innovative altima ever. nissan. innovation that excites. ♪
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. this is a newsletter from catholic president bill donohue talking -- catholic league president bill donohue.
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we don't live in that world thankfully. everyone of course is entitled to off fer advice but those who are no longer practicing catholics or who never were cannot expect a serious hearing. this has to be said now because over the next several monthser with like try to witness an explosion in voyeurism. catholics feel besieged, feeling misunderstood or they are taunting or, you know, bias from the media. my father thinks the church gets a raw deal. in some way this relates to the question how the church is outward facing and how it relates to the fact its membership is declining and i wonder if someone who is involved in the life of the church on a very daily basis like how do you understand that decline? >> well i'm not sure that actually in absolute terms it's
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declining but with particular sociocultural groups it's declining. i think competition for people's attention and the secularization of the intellectual life you go through that and you wonder does it make sense to believe in this faith, in any faith. so that's true for north america, for western europe as a matter of intellectual history, and i'm not sure it's easily generalizable across other cultures. what do you think? >> in my experience people that i see that no longer go don't find relevance in the church. they go church, they hear homilies that they don't fed by. sometimes it's an emphasis on law, sometimes it's a consciousness homily. >> you don't think if i open up with a story of my summer camp. >> people go wanting to hold on to something for the week, something they can model their
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lives on, something that relates. i think at times and perhaps it's the decline of the intellectual life as well, there's an inability to hold attention in a complex discussion where there's multiif a seated issues and we might not agree with each other but we can be stretched by our mutual understanding. >> as a liberal and someone who comes out of the tradition of the church and is quite intellectual and concerned with the life of the mind is appealing to me and part of my relationship with the church is that. michael makes a point complexity is not the thing that's driving religious growth around the world. devotion, faith of the most straightforward way and i don't mean to over simplify people's spiritual lives. but complexity and holding tension is not a thing that's driving religious devotion around the world. >> i left the church as a teenager. i grew up in this church that was constantly trying to
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experiment. okay we'll try folk music this week. we're going to do some sermons on young arch types. now we're comparing the sacraments. it was just ludicrous. i was impressed by either atheyism or evangelicalism. >> go all in. >> came to a point what is the catholic church good for unless you believe the tomb was empty on sunday, jesus christ is the risen lord and you want to get to heaven. that's what drew me back to the church. it wasn't necessarily a political conversation or a kind of indulgence in the intellect. it is who am i? who is he? i want to be in his church even with all these evil people that are in it, these mediocre people that are in it. >> can the pep be held responsible -- what should the pope be held responsible for when we talk about the growth or decline of the church. how much much that can be laid at the pope's feet? >> the purpose of a religion is
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to help people make sense of the big questions, the questions that none of us have answers to. why are we here, where are we going, why do we suffer, what happens after death. it's important a church or any religion engage with its people and meet them where they are. it's to help people find meaning. when a religion stops helping people find meaning people will turn to consumerism, to culture, and the pope is so busy declaring our culture, the culture of death, you know, putting the responsibility on us. >> you are laying this on the pope's feet. you're saying this person that comes out of cdf and the person who was the chief theologian is alienating the flock in the u.s. and europe where church membership as decline. >> he and the hierarchy of a. they have denied the crisis in
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the priesthood. >> i think it's doctrinal declarations are beautiful. they are out of time. it's precisely the crisis we haven't addressed. i was with some priests at dinner the other night teaching at a catholic university, living in a religious community and one of them said, you know, people just can't believe in these guys who wear these robes and it's easy to mock the clerical garb especially the dresses bishops are said to wear. nobody says that about the daili lama. why is that? there's all kind of reasons. if the people wearing clerical robes handle or mishand tell crisis in the way that they have, misunderstand their own role in it, right, what is driving people away from the church is not that priests have molested as horrible that is, or child rape. i'm not saying people don't care about that. what makes them leave the church isn't that there are some preechts who have done that it's
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because we imagine they are sick people and there's only so much you can do to get rid of sick people. what's the defense of bishops who didn't respond in a robust muscular and transparent way to deal with that. that's where the crisis in faith is. that's what makes the robe seem bad. what's the great moment of grace in benedict's resignation is he's saying it's not the occupant of the robes, it's the office that matters. and that needs to be extended much further. >> i'm glad that you cued that up. i've done a lot of reporting on this church's sexual abuse scandal. i want to talk about that next. the reason why i want to push that off it's the only thing we talk about. there's no escaping it it is so central to the way we understand and i think people of faith also understand it. so i want to talk about that. i want to talk about a few of the cardinals who are voting on the next pope and what their record is on this which i find
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♪ are cardinal mahoney archbishop in los angeles who has in his ministry done a lot of laudible things particularly around immigrants and immigration and creating a kind of sense of oasis for people feeling alienated, marginalized, persecuted in american life not documented, that said his handling of child rapists within the flock of his priests is horrifying and i just want to give an example because this man will be voting on the next pope and to me the fact that he'll be voting on the next pope sim bottomizes exactly everything that's wrong right now with where the church is in terms of dealing with this, dealing with this evil. father peter garcia was a priest
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who abused a dozen young boys. this is letters that we now have because of the lawsuit of roger mahony writing to his chief adviser about monsignor garcia. i feel strongly that it would not be possible for monsignor garcia to return to california and to the archdiocese of los angeles for the foreseeable future. the two young men who were involved may have legal action filed. basically this is just a straightforward degree of laugh evading criminal counsel which is you were wanted by the fuse here for the horrifying things you did, you should not come back. there are many, many and i spent six months reporting on this and you and i correspond about this. there's more letters like this. >> 1,000 pages. >> there's a lot of letters.
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this to me the question when you think about the pope's legacy particularly what will it take for the church as an institution to get right on this inthere's a certain amount of where the evil that's been done cannot be undone. institutionally what would your solution look like for the church to get right on this so you do not have a situation in which the pope himself there were some cases in which under his -- that priests were transferred after having accusations and justified accusations of this kind of behavior what's the solution for the church to get right on this, michael? >> there's no one solution for it, right, because every institutional reform in the catholic church and it's gone through them in every age and effort of its being ends up being subverted by the men within the church, the human nature. but in the immediate term i
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think there are some solutions which is one, bishops who have done this should lose their authority. i mean just -- that's it. cardinal mahony should have his red hat taken away from him. >> yes. >> and some of these men should be turned over to authorities. the church should encourage the prosecution of these crimes. that's the decent things that don't require extraordinary holiness or religious insight to do. i mean it's just that basic. if you protect child rapists, you're done. >> sister? >> i know that they spend -- it's my understanding that prior to the actual election the bishops spend time and the cardinals spend time talking about tissues that face the church and this is one of the most significant things, the credibility is nil in so many places because they have not
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taken responsibility for their own actions and haven't acted justly. or in a gospel fashion. so they are the only ones in a sense -- they don't seem to respond the reiteratism from the newspaper, the media, the letters. >> there's a lot of bunkering. there's a lot of reaction it in a very defensive posture. >> when the bishops adopted a policy in dallas ten years ago or so, the policy itself was unobjectionable, it was already in place in most places but they decided to say with cardinal law who at the time was cardinal mahony in that position, they decided to say what cardinal law needed was a better policy and if we had a better policy which fundamentally was most the case. they knew it. if instead they said we need to cauterize this law. cardinal law did a lot of great things but when you didn't react properly to this signal then you have to step aside. as the pope is stepping aside
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his physical and mental capacity isn't up to the job as michael said step aside. if hundred bishops resigned because they felt they mishandled the issue god will judge their soul and conscience. they wouldn't be saying i'm a moral failure. what they would be saying is we lost the credibility to have this office within the church that's an important office that's more important than me. and the bishops have never found collectively that capacity to recognize the reason people leaf the church is not because priests have done a horrible thing. but what they are more horrified by is people who can't say i have this pathology i can't help but trying to keep people out of the state away from the long arm. law. >> i agree with that. and one of the things we've seen actually which is real
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interesting other institutions, you know, have acted in similar ways. one of the big differences is they have rubbed up against the outside world with the law much faster than the church was able to keep things internal for so long sometimes with the complicit of catholic district attorneys and police. in the case of penn state that went on for a very long time. eventually it hit up against the wall of secular law. i want to turn where the church goes and what this conclave will look like given what this handling of the sex abuse scandal says about the institutional dynamics at play right after this break. ♪ ♪ in the case of penn state that ♪ they see me rollin'
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thoondling of abuse allegations against priests. you get a sense of the outrage which right now in ireland is at a very high pitch. across society. and has devastated church attendance. take a look. >> for the first time in this country, a report of child sexual abuse attempts to expose by the holy see as little as three years ago not three decades ago and in doing so the report kaex elevates the disfunctions the disconnection, the elitism, the dominant culture of the vatican today. the rape and torture of children were down played or managed to uphold instead the primacy of the institution, its power, its standing and its reputation. >> as someone who is a vatican watcher, michael, and i've been following your reporting on all
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of this, is there something that the conclave can do that would signal to you some kind of a break or some kind of new course for the vatican and for the cardinals and specifically for this issue but in a more broad way? >> no. i don't want to sound hopeless. there have been some cardinals, like a cardinal from vienna who has been very critical of the handling of the sex abuse crisis but the only way the election of the next pope affects is how he governs the church. is he willing to tell people that elected him you're out of office. >> right. >> go to a monastery and wait for the cops. that would restore confidence in the vatican and in the papacy. but short of that there's no one signal. actually, there's not going to be one signal in the election of the next pope because everyone is looking at other factors too
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like geography or region or anything else. so it's not just one -- it's not just one issue. >> do you have hopes who the next pope will be. >> i like to speak to that more, the lack of moral credibility. the roman catholic church is known for its condemnation on issues relating to sexual morality. there's no credibility. in terms of pope most of the men that will vote for this pope have been selected by pope john paul ii or pope benedict xvi. it's not a real investment in our glory social justice in this church. i don't like to discount the holy spirit. >> can i ask you this question. if there are frustrations you have with the doctrine of the
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church, why do you stay in it? i'm always sort of interested in catholic reformers, people called to action a grouch folks trying to change the church direction from within it. the church is what is it. there's lots of -- you can be a unitarian. >> i went to yale divinity school with a ton of catholic students and faculty. that gave me time and years to figure out what i loved about the church. what hurts me about more traditional catholics that claim to love the church they have this view of catholicism that says it comes down what you believe about sexual morality where the beauty of this is is a kextra -- sacramental theology. this is what makes the church beautiful. that catholic imagination that we have. that really sue knick about the tradition. >> if you grow up encountering
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god and christ in the church then no number of bishops or anybody else can take that away from you and i think that's why people stay. think about this. if you have decided to talk about something other than the pope with this group of four people you might have found some disagreement. but if the next pope, if we knew six months from now the next pope would deal in a muscular way with the crisis of authority and its misappropriation and abuse, the four of us are a all pining for that. so one hopes that the holy spirit will let the conclave see that. >> to that point we began this conversation talking about the less ga assist pope. one of the most stunning pieces he left us is his resignation saying that the church is more important than i am. and i hope that talking about the movement of the spirit, that's going stay in conversation for a long time. we can only hope that penetrates
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as the church begins its move forward. >> if you're watching this and an editor out there and looking to hire a phenomenal talented writer michael dougherty is on the market. thanks for joining us. the human cost on the war on terror up next. try running four.ning a restaurant is hard, fortunately we've got ink. it gives us 5x the rewards on our internet, phone charges and cable, plus at office supply stores. rewards we put right back into our business.
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a hairline fracture to the mandible and contusions to the metacarpus. what do you see? um, i see a duck. be more specific. i see the aflac duck. i see the aflac duck out of work and not making any money. i see him moving in with his parents and selling bootleg dvds out of the back of a van. dude, that's your life. remember, aflac will give him cash to help cover his rent, car payments and keep everything as normal as possible. i see lunch. [ monitor beeping ] let's move on. [ male announcer ] find out what a hospital stay could really cost you at 11 plus years since 9/11 we have grown accustomed to new boston policies to get information on u.s. citizens. we're acclimated to the small curtailment of rights. routine searches of our bags
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when entering a stadium. the large bulk of the official state activities are invisible to the vast majority of americans. somewhere, someone might be reading an e-mail i sent to a friend abroad but if they are i don't know it and i don't spend a lot of time thinking about it. but for this american citizen and ten year air force veteran who converted to islam the policies enacted in the years after 9/11 is anything about remote. he surmised he was placed on the no fly list where he was barred flying from qatar to oklahoma. six months later his story was told. he was allowed to board a flight from qatar to oklahoma. when he purchase ad plane ticket to go back home to his job and family his lawyer sent a letter to the fbi alerting them to his plan saying i write to inform you mr. long has purchased a ticket to doha, qatar that
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leaves from oklahoma city, oklahoma on february 6, 2013. in libt of his past travel difficulties, we ask mr. long be granted the same right. despite that letter he was barred from returning to qatar. he now remains in oklahoma away from his wife, daughter and livelihood. he has never been told by any u.s. authority that his name is on the no fly list nor has he been charged officially with any crimes. he simply been told he can't go home. joining us now, the u.s. air force veteran who joins us from oklahoma city because he was unable to fly here. and can't join us on set. gentlemen, good to have you here. can you tell me, i'm curious about your story. you were in the air force. i think you joined when you were 18 or 19 years old. how did you fine your way to islam? >> well, when i was stationed in
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turkey i met two individuals, one of whom worked with me and another one who worked a different office on the base, and they used to present, you know, they would pass out booklets and pamphlets to those of us who were serving there and that's how basically i was introduced to it. >> and you converted while you were there in turkey? >> that's right. >> and then after that you met your wife, you came back to the united states, your met your wife and decided to go live abroad in the middle east. >> that's right. >> and why did you make that choice? >> well, because i guess while i was serving in turkey i guess i fell in love with the culture and the way of the people. just the whole atmosphere, you know. so i decided after getting out of the air force i decided to move to egypt and try to learn the language and mix with the
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people. >> so you now have created a life for yourself in the region. you're teaching english i understand at a company. how did you hear about your mother's illness and walk me through what happened when you tried to go home the first time when you purchase ad ticket to go home and visit her? >> yes. i think my mother, she became ill maybe in the middle of 2011, and, you know, i had to try to arrange to travel to see her, and around april is when i had everything basically arranged. i guess one or two days prior to the flight is when i received a phone call from the manager of the airline, explaining to me that i would not be able to fly. >> what explanation did he give you about why you couldn't go home to see your mother who was terminally ill? >> well she couldn't really. she just told me she had received a call from the airport
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security manager and she gave me his number to call. i called him. and he said that he received, i guess, a teletext or something to that effect from the customs and border patrol and they just notified him that, you know, i should not be allowed to get on the airplane. >> now, there's an official sort of redress process for folks that feel they are mistakenly put on the list and you as his lawyer helped file, right, through this process. and you got a letter back from dhs saying thank you for submitting your travel inquiry form. in response to your request we've conducted a review of any applicable records in consultation with other federal agencies. it has been determined no changes or corrections are warranted at this time. that's all you get. >> yeah. >> that's all i get. >> often you get less.
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so, this new iteration of letters that dhs pays people courtesy of letting them know whether or not changes have or have not been made. but we regularly see people on no fly lists receive letters essentially say if a change was appropriate we made it, if a change was not appropriate we didn't make it. and what's really disconcerting is that dhs doesn't know why -- >> they literal liu have a list of names. >> they just have a list of names. it's only fbi and god know why he was placed on the no fly list. >> i want to ask you this and i don't want to endorse the suspicion that was cast pound for no reason that we know, but i do want to ask you since you're here. do you know why you were put on the list. do you have affiliations with people that make you be a suspicious individual? >> i have no idea, really. >> i want to talk about what
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happened when you got back to the united states and talk about how you feel about being placed in this position of exile now from your wife and child right after this break. know that guy s that limousine. current events. comfortable temperature. biceps. he maintains everything for your pleasure. he has the nicest car you can think of, but longer. with one hand he can roll down 10 windows plus the partition. everything he does, tacks right off. and of course he dines upon the liquid gold of velveeta shells and cheese. end of story. liquid gold. eat like that guy you know. when the doctor told me that i could smoke for the first week... i'm like...yeah, ok... little did i know that one week later i wasn't smoking. [ male announcer ] along with support, chantix is proven to help people quit smoking. it reduces the urge to smoke. some people had changes in behavior, thinking or mood, hostility, agitation, depressed mood and suicidal thoughts or actions
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all right. so you are denied a plane ticket, you're not told why. you go through this redress process. your mother is still ill. and then at a certain point you decide to try again. why did you decide to try again? >> i'm sorry, can you repeat that last part? >> you decided to try again to buy a ticket to come home to visit your mother. what prompted you to give it another go? >> well, under the direction of care that needed to be done, so they could get it out in the media that i was still trying. in needed to still see my seriously ill mother. something had to be done. >> and you were allowed to fly.
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you came home. you visited your mother. i under that the fbi came and showed up at your mother's house before you had even landed, is that correct? >> yes. as a matter of fact they did. they wanted to see her medication since, i guess they didn't believe the reason i was coming home was to see her. so they asked to see all of her meds. >> they showed up at your terminally ill mother's house and asked to see her medication to prove to them that she was, indeed, ill. >> that's correct. >> you came and visited your mother. and then decided after being with her and being able to see her you were going to return to your family in doha. you sent a letter to the fbi. what happened at the airport when you showed up to fly back to doha. >> well, we tried -- i tried to check in, and the airline representative he had notified me that i would not be able to,
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in fact, and he requested a policemen to come on the scene and three of them showed up. which was very intimidating. and they basically told us that we would have to discuss it with the representative from tsa. and he in turn said that he had no idea why i was on the list but i should just call the fbi and they would explain to me. >> so you show up at the airport in a have a police escort out of there. you are given no explanation. >> no explanation. >> what happened when you contacted the fbi to get some explanation? >> well, so we sent a letter ahead of time prior to him flying to indicate that he would be flying, and we are yet to get an explanation as to why it is that he is on the no fly list. >> the fbi won't comment about
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these cases. that's part of the standard pralting procedure they won't talk to us, or the press they say it's an ongoing case. you were then tailed by fbi agents after being at the airport? >> no. i mean when i first arrived back in november that's when i, you know, i was tailed. and that's when my mother's house and my sister's house, they were placed under 24 hour surveillance. but this last time, last week or so, february 6th no, they haven't been following us. >> someone who served in the united states air force for ten years, as someone who served the country, how do you feel about being placed in this state of suspicion by your government? >> well there's obviously feelings of frustration. feelings of uncertainty.
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feelings ever distress. >> and what is your next plan now? >> well i hope to be able to get back on the plane and go back to qatar in about a week or so. as you said, do i have family there. i am the sole breadwinner. and i have a livelihood to earn so i need to get back to work. >> as of now still no indication from the government whether you'll be allowed to leave, no information on confirmation whether you're on the no fly list and no amount of official charges. thank you for joining us today. >> thank you for having me. >> what the no fly list has to do with gun control after this.
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from new york i'm chris
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haynes. we were talking about the air force veteran who was placed on the no-fly list, originally barred from returning to the middle east from visiting his ill mother. eventually allowed to fly back to the united states. after visiting his mother having his mother and sister tailed by the fbi, unable to leave the country when he went to the airport police were called, inform he couldn't get on the flight and as of now we still do not have any information from the government as to what charges are against him, what suspicions, why he's on the no-fly list and why he can't fly. i'm joined now by ben jealous president of the naacp to help discuss this. and former assistant attorney general for national security and producer of huff post live. this story is really, the details of the story are truly
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awful and bewildering. my question as someone who is work how common is this sort of thing? is this just a one off kind of example? >> no, it's not. this is a characteristic that is plaguing the american muslim community today. long's case is exceptional only in the details. it's very common for us at c.a.r.e. to receive calls from people who are stranded abroad or stranded inside the u.s. we've even seen situations where american citizens that are placed on the no-fly list and only find that placement when they are abroad actually choose not return back to the u.s. because one can imagine how terrifying it is to experience a denial of the right to be present in the united states. >> what is the legal status of this gentleman? this list seems a very strange
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carve out from our very basic principles innocent until proven guilty, you can't be denied things without due process. but you're placed into this third category you're neither innocent or guilty. >> that's the problem with these preventative measures. they are not criminal. they are not punishment. they are civil measures that the government takes that impose significant and severe restraints on individually better but because the government is not placing behind bars, because there's not a custodial of liberty we don't think there's a huge problem. there's a number of cases have been brought and they bounced back between district courts and appellate courts because of a weird jurisdictional statute that lacks clarity where these cases have been brought. cases have been remand down to district courts in oregon and california and there's hopes courts will look at some of the
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constitutional procedural process, due process claims that are given here. >> ben given the history of the naacp and the way states are surveillance and spying has been used both against civiling rights activist, african-americans broadly, i wonder what your feeling is hearing the story? >> it's very sad. it's frustrating to listen to somebody who is a father, who is working, trying to provide for their family, a good son trying to get home to his sick mother and a veteran of our military. being treated with suspicion. and you can almost feel that elves like perhaps his faith has something to do with it, right. we're a country that reveres service in our military, reveres people of faith. and there's increasingly large black muslim community. people who -- second, third
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generation, some who convert. and when you sit down and you listen to vets many of whom who have converted to islam and quite frankly converted to strings of islam that are consistent with patriotism with their service in military often in countries that are allies to us, qatar is an ally to us, turkey is an ally then treated with suspicion by the broader government it's very painful because these are people who are good people and it's hard to not look at him and see thousands of people like him. some of whom i work with who left the u.s. military because they converted and were treated differently. >> obama administration has doubled the no-fly list we should note. this came from an ap report. to about 21,000 names. secret lists of suspected terrorist whose are banned from flying to or within the united states. the flood of new names began after the failed christmas 2009
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bombing of a detroit-bound jetliner. the government lowered the standard for putting people on the list. james, we're talking about what's outrageous about this. i can absolutely 1,000% understand that exact reasoning. you think how the heck did we let this guy get on a plane and so people say let's err on the side of caution, let's err on making the list bigger than smaller and the worst that happens some people get deprived of their ability to fly. what's wrong with that logic? >> it's not erring on the side of caution this is err on the scale of fear. we're into like five digits. this is something that's happening with the drug war, something that's happening with no-fly lists, something happening with kill lists and this is the way the system works. when you build this system you create an architecture of corruption. his story is dismaying.
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what's even more dismaying, you need to take a step back to say like today it might be this affects muslim, today with the drug wore it may affect african-americans, tomorrow these are going look like prototypes for the people as a ul are treated. this is the way bureaucracies function. when you start to motivate those pathologies by resorting to politics of fear -- >> wait. it's dangerous people. it's names on this list. this list from its origins have been notorious. gordon smith who may have been somebody who had some affiliation with the irish republican party. same name as u.s. senator. ted kennedy tloints. and he can't get to work. you have nelson mandela on the list? why. because he was associated with a terrorist group trying to end apartheid in south africa. this list is problematic.
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his name is on the list. it's not clear to him that he's even on the list. >> his objection, i don't understand why i'm on the list. the point. list is it can't be understood why you're on the list. >> if is the fbi faq. can i find out if i am on the terrorist screening database? the tsc cannot reveal whether a particular experience in the tsdb. the tsdb remains an effective tool because its contents are not disclosed. if they revealed who is in the tsdb terrorist organizations would be able to circumvent the list. >> i want to defend one aspect of that. >> defend. go to town. >> the concept -- there are two things. there is a reasonable conception, there's a situation where you could have information from a foreign government that's sensitive, time sensitive,
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somebody is about to get on the plane and you want the government to stop them. the question is when these types of restraints persist for a very long time, this is not just a temporary emergency stop gap measure it's persisting without any fair process to determine why you're on the list, if you're on the list, how to get off the list, why you're on the list. that's unjustifiable. secondly the fact that the fbi does not disclose who is a known, suspected terrorist makes absolute sense. once somebody has gone to a point been told they can't get on a plane it's pretty clear they are on the list. even after that situation fbi will not tell somebody why they are on the list makes no sense. >> here's what i want to do. james said something that's key. one of the things we're dealing with here how do you deal with prevention. somebody commits a crime or a terrorist act. the way that we've been thinking about crime recently and the way
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we think about terrorism post-9/11 is prevention. how do you stop people from pulling this off. it's the same logic of stop and frisk. and other police tools. and it's the same logic of background checks for guns. it's the same logic that what you want to do to keep certain kinds of people away from doing certain kinds of activities. i want to talk about the legitimacy of that. it's a broad principle. [ male announcer ] there are only so many foods
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i think the most simple thing we can do and we have to make this a number one issue as a test vote and then take it into the election that is if you're on the no-fly list because you're known as maybe a possible terrorist you cannot buy a handgun in america. >> that's rahm emanuel in 2007 calling for what's been known in gun safety circles as a no-fly, no-buy policy. there's bills introduced in congress and on a certain level it makes sense. if you can't get on a plane why would we let you buy a handgun. what do you think of that kind of policy? >> it's beabject silliness. to think americans are made safer by precluding americans placed on no-fly lists by unknown fbi agents to have never had to explain themselves to
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independent decision makers and to assess quality of their information. i want provides until lugs of safety here. >> but he said something there that's counter to the policy. he said if you're on the list -- >> as maybe a possible terrorist. >> ted kennedy couldn't buy a gun. he was on the list. >> then the question becomes, the question here and this i think is why this relates back to the background check question, is the it execution or is it the conceptual idea? is the problem this list keeping and maintenance of some sort of third category of people that are suspicious and suspected, or is the problem just that that's fine we just don't do a very good job of making sure that the list is pruned and properly maintained. . it depends on what you do with the list. fbi intelligence officers have to have a listing order to determine who to track. there's a difference between
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privacy interests and listing being used for determining who is the terminology known or suspected terrorist somebody worth tracking and monitoring. you have to have lists to do your job. the question is when the lists turn to the basis information posing affirmative restraints on individually better. and in that situation there absolutely needs to be clear notice as to the basis, the fact that you're on the list and a meaningful opportunity to cha challenge. >> you can't separate out the idea from the idea of the execution. so when your point of departure is when it's a fact that you are maybe possibly a terrorist then you're not going able to have a gun. where does the overlap between background checks and no-fly list. you can look at gun control as something that people are advancing as a policy idea. when you peel off the first layer of the cake you say what's in here.
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it's people control. if you want to do gun control by doing more people control you should say so. that's a policy option. we should be clear that the project is to do people control in the same way and that's the way the lists are used. >> there's two different ways. this is key. banning certain kinds of weapons is gun control. background checks is people control. i agree. there's different approaches to tissue and the point i would make is because of the way our political discussions get framed the people control is more popular. that's one that will have more political legs. >> there's two different types of people control. there's a background check. do we know you're crazy or a criminal. then your name, a name that's like yours is on a list and we can't tell you why. there's no real -- that's a problem. the fact that the fbi is not willing to be courageous enough to sit down with somebody and go through the facts and say you served in the military for ten years u-told us why you were coming it turned out to be true,
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you got a family to get back, to let's get you back there. >> let me reiterate this point, the key difference here and the thing that makes the no fly list, it's own special kind of monster in the national criminal background check, the database that was started in 1968 and gun control act and broadened in 1993 through the brady bill most of the things that get you on the less that are adjudicated officially. if you have a criminal felony conviction you have been afford due process and that's noted in the list. the problem is this haze of suspicion. the thing that both scares me and also makes me really suspicious of the way the list is operating is that there's 22,000 names on it. when you go read the faq on the fbi list, this is what i love. it's basically asking about i can get off this list. misidentified persons are delayed while the government works to distinguish them from the terrorists in the tdsb.
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there's a terrorist in there. there's 22,000 terrorists and we're just saying don't get on a plane. >> we don't believe these people are terrorists -- >> didn't think that. >> if they had information pep were actually convictable they would convict them. it's not as if our law enforcement agencies post-9/11 have been hesitant to bring charges against persons that are properly chargeable with terrorism. >> one of the big problems is this is a loophole for the working class terrorist. you're a rich terrorist you get on the qe2 and there's no sail list. >> or cruise boat or drive a van and buy fertilizer. don't get on that delta flight to cleveland but go ahead and do whatever you want. >> take the train. thanks a lot. the big political story be
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my story of the week the change in climate change. something pretty remarkable has happened in the last month. for several years in which global policy was side lipd after presidential campaign in which tissue was ignored it's claug its way back into the conversation. you can feel the terrain shifting beneath our feet. first there was sandy a devastating 100 year storm that hit the nation's media capital i had lighted how much danger higher sea levels can do. the elephant in the room the fact that storm intense egypt will grow in the future and combined with higher sea levels to do more damage did not go unnoticed by politicians. >> we have a new reality when it comes to these weather patterns. we have an old infrastructure and we have old systems.
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and that is not a good combination. and that's one of the lessons that i'm going to take from this personally. >> what is clear is that the storms we've experienced in the last few years is much more severe than before. >> all up and down the east coast there are mayors many of them republicans who are being told you got to move these houses back away from the ocean. climate change will raise the water levels on a permanent basis. if you want your town insured you have to do this. >> then came news 2012 was the warmest year ever recorded by a full degree fahrenheit. after saying hardly a word about climate the president him self to hit great credit pushed it back on the jen. he surprised observers by saying this early in the speech as the first domestic policy he mentioned after dealing with the economy. >> we will respond to the threat of climate change.
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knowing that the failure to do so would betray our children and future generations. some may still deny the overwhelming judgment of science but none can avoid the devastating impact of raging fires and crippling drought and more powerful storms. >> during tuesday's night state of the union the president once again put the climate as the first domestic policy after the economy and was more emphatic in his promises to act. >> i urge this congress to get together, pursue a bipartisan market based solution to climate change like the one john mccain and joe lieberman worked on. if congress won't act soon to project future generations i will. >> on thursday the government accountability office came out with a new report identifying risks to the government and at the top was fiscal exposure the federal government faces due to climate change. remarkable.
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darrell issa had this to say about the gao report. >> i don't want to walk away from anything in this report. when you look at climate change and hurricane sandy and others, it points out that we have underprepared through fema and through our emergency funds including flood control for a generation. >> finally this week senators bernie sanders and barbara boxer introduced a climate bill in the unlikely event it will pass would represent a major victory for the climate, for environmentalists and enable the environmental protection agency to regulate fracking. after several years of exile, climate policy is back on the agenda. thank god. now i don't want to minimize how far things have to go and how many challenges there are to overcome the make the challenges required to reduce the risk of total disaster.
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we're reminded once again the lengths the wealthiest companies with trillion of dollars on the line will go to the reserve their right to dump their pollution cost free. almost $120 million was funneled to groups denying the since of climate change on top. sizable funding from coke industries, exxon and others. that funding and pro pollution lobbying infrastructure aren't going anywhere. there's the president himself while talking about the issue has yet to indicate whether or not he'll use his authority to block the wildly destructive keystone pipeline and after his strong words in the state of the union didn't indicate in his follow up google fireside hang out the administration would break any new ground in executive action. >> the same steps that we took with respect to energy efficiency on cars we can take on building, we can take on appliances.
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we can make sure that new power plants that are being built are more efficient than the old ones, and we can continue to put research and our support behind clean energy that is going to continue to help us transition away from dirtier fuels. >> then perhaps is the strange culture of washington that used climate as a special interest issue relevant to environmental groups and not every living human on the planet. while there's an obsession over budget projections for 240 they are sanguin that arctic ice has decimated. no one will care in 30 years what the deficit was in 2013.
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quick pop quiz. what was the deficit in 1953 or 1923 or heck 1883? the correct answer is you don't know because it doesn't matter. what does matter are the molecules in the air much more than numbers on the balance sheet. the apathy on climate change extends to people that constitutes the president's base. standard liberal activists to whine that they don't talk about issues they most care about. even when president tries to insert climate into the conversation it falls to a dull thud. washington will never make climate a priority until the left makes it a priority. i want to tell you about one group on the left that's making a priority after this.
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we're talking about the new
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politics of climate after a period in which climate activists thought they could get a bill regulating carbon. that tied in 2010, a glum quiet death. the issue has been exiled for a few years but it's back on the table. ben jealous is back with us and director of citizens energy program, renewable energy advocacy group and author of "eaarth" and a woman who fought back energy companies to bill a pipeline on first nation territory. they are taking part in a rally this morning to protest the proposed keystone pipeline extension. great to have you there. maybe i'll begin with you, bill. what is the strategy here?
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there was a strategy, a legislative strategy that did not work. there's been a lot of hand wringing about it. it moved off the agenda. where do you see this going now? what is the path forward for folks who are working on this issue? >> chris, here's the deal. you know, we thought for 20 years that reason would solve this problem. the world' best scientists kept showing up and saying the worst thing on earth is happening u-need to do something about it. but that didn't reckon with how much money was on the other side. now we're building a movement and that movement is turning insomething. a year ago we had the largest civil disobedience action about any issue for 30 years, this keystone pipeline and today's rally which is mostly about keystone will turn into the largest climate rally in u.s. history. so if the president really wants to move, there's now some movement behind him, opening up
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some political space for him to go to work. >> chief jackie you thought a pipeline that would go to the pacific ocean running from the alberta tar sands and go through the land of your first nation. my question to you is, i think people look at the keystone thing and there's this temptation to view it as a foregone conclusion and it's a temptation to fight the good fight. at the end the fossil fuel companies will get their way. what did you learn about stopping things from the battle you've been engagged in? >> we can't be complacent in things we're doing in stopping this pipeline. if we accept what we're told we won't be waking up the people. i think the people are waking up now. >> that's the important thing is we have to wake people up. you know, we cannot ask ourselves is it possible in washington. we have to ask ourselves are their real consequences for our children if we don't do this now. if there are then we have to
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have the kmourj to step forward. that's why i'm so -- >> as the head of the oldest civil rights organization in this country and someone work in communities besieged by joblessness, by poverty, by failing schools by a criminal justice system run amuck -- >> we live lower than the levee. we live in the housing projects. in the rockaways. there were many of us who said we'll get to that after we get jobs. then we realized the two were extremely vulnerable. and children are vulnerable when you look at asthma rates. yes, keystone is an issue but we need this president to make sure that we have a very strong policy with regards to power
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plants. because these coal fired power plants many of them in the cities, like the once shut down in chicago are killing kids every day and we just need to be w honest about that. >> when you look at people of color and low-income communities are near these sources of pollution but you look at how consumers fare, oil prices will get more and more expensive even as exxonmobil predicts we're going net exporter of crude oil by 2025, it won't lower the price for working families. the longer that we stay tied to fossil fuels the more enslaved we are to fossil fuel, higher prices and instability that comes with fossil fuel. >> but there's arguments that the kind of ration enamel arguments you noted before as the way we were leading on this issue for 30 years and you are saying it's more about power than arguments.
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it's more about how many people you can deliver on the mall, how many calls you can get into a senator's office. >> we won the scientific argument 20 years ago. i wrote the first book about all this in 1989, okay. but we also have to match the incredible financial power and that's what moments are about and it's starting to happen. wednesday, you know, i had the great honor of being handcuffed in the paddy wagon next to julian bond one of my great heroes and he was telling stories about going to jail in 1960 in atlanta to desegregate lunch counters and he was saying this keystone fight is the same fight, same fight, the sierra club that day our oldest environmental organization for the first time in its history committed civil disobedience because of the keystone pipeline. this has become the rallying points now for people. if the president turns it down this will be the first time that a world leader has ever said i'm not going to build some big
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project because of its effect on the climate. if you want to talk about legacy, that's legacy and if you want to talk about the ability to try and leverage other countries to try to convince them to change their ways that's how we'll do it if we're ever going to do it. >> what's so important about what bill is talking about is that the movement is changing rapidly to rise to the challenge. you know, julian bond was there because he knows it's important to our community, important to our kids, important to our nation. also there was a new generation of young leaders like mike burns and phil rafferty of green peace, like fedra for green for all, like becky, all of the young people who have come up as organizers saying we're not going to do this and frankly the romney campaign and environmentalist movement had the same problem. the old green movement thought
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they could do this with one color of people. the new movement recognizes that we have to pull in people of color. we have to really organize, we can't just make arguments from on high we got to make them in the streets and move the people into action. >> i think the american people are finally see through the cynicism, the bombardment of the messaging from fossil fuel industry. they spend hundreds of billions of dollars in this last election and people are understanding because of sandy and other things. >> i want to talk about this the outside game and inside game of what a legislative strategy would look like. i want to talk about the bill you introduced this week right after this break. ...the best selling paint and primer in one that now eliminates stains. so it paints over stained surfaces, scuffed surfaces, just about any surface. what do you say we go where no paint has gone before, and end up some place beautiful. more saving. more doing. that's the power of the home depot.
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they're about 10 times softer and may have surface pores where bacteria can multiply. polident kills 99.99% of odor causing bacteria and helps dissolve stains. that's why i recommend polident. [ male announcer ] cleaner, fresher, brighter every day. i love the fact that quicken loans provides va loans. quicken loans understood the details and guided me through every step of the process. i know wherever the military sends me, i can depend on quicken loans. my story of the week i talked about deficit obsession and relative complacency on climate. you can link the two. this is an estimate of not specifically this bill but a $20
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metric ton carbon tax in this bill. year one $88 billion. by year ten you're getting $154 billion. huge amounts of money. you helped work on this bill. and the standard politico take on this cyst a dead end, it's going nowhere, you adorable liberals with your pie in the sky ideas. >> everything is difficult in congress right now. even routine appropriations bill. that's what the march in washington is about is building that grassroots support. polls show strong support for action on climate change. what this legislation does is it has one big tool to address climate change which is pricing carbon to more accurately reflect the true costs of burning fossil fuels like oil and coal. we can't rely on prices alone to make that big shift. so 60% of the revenues that are
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raised from pricing carbon are immediately kicked back to families on a per person household basis. if it's around 220 bucks per person is kicked back. >> you get a check in the mail. >> exactly. >> this is your dividend. >> that helps offset the increase we'll see in energy prices. it holds working families and elderly and people on fixed incomes to a hold because that's a crucial component is equity. 40% of the revenues goes into helping finance the tools that families need to help them avoid their access to or their reliance on fossil fuels. financing mass transit option. making it easier to finance renewable energy deployed in our communities. these are the sustainable energy investments -- >> that create jobs. make the air cleaner. >> absolutely. $5 billion a year for
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weatherization assistance so our homes are more energy-efficient. a billion dollars a year for job training for folks to get jobs to do that weather san diego. it creates jobs. >> absolutely. >> bill, are you setting up -- is the movement setting up keystone as a kind of defining moment and if keystone actually does end up being okayed what does that do the energy of the folks that are going to come to the mall that have been participating in what is a very sizable energetic and well organized movement? >> well, look. it's politics is one thing. physics is another. the reason we're worried about keystone above all we can't put that carbon into the atmosphere. but there's a lot else going on. we have 256 college campuses with actual die vestment moments. this is the biggest student movement in decades. the fossil fuel industry we'll put them on the run. we're trying to change the politics of washington but we do need leadership from the
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president. he gets to decide keystone himself without congress saying a word. we'll find out if he's talk or if he's action. >> jackie, steven harper kane has been very pro excavation of this exploitation of this resource. i know there's also a very powerful movement there. do you see a potential for sort of partnership across the border on this? >> i've been building alliances. i spent my time in canada building alliance. that's the reason i came here is to build alliance. >> i want to thank bill from and chief jackie thomas from nation's national climate forward in washington, d.c. what you need to know coming up next.
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should know for the news week ahead. an update on "zero dark 30." the portrayal of torture. john rizzo, who overawe the turture at the tom is going over husband impression of the film. rizzo was asked by jeffrey brown about the film. >> do you think the film left a clear impression the interrogations were instrumental or a direct link? >> yeah. i would be interested if someone did not get that. getting around it that is depicted in the movie. >> he is the latest in the string of officials to come away with that. cia interrogations classified and released that reviewed 6 million pages of documents found torture was not a component in
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finding osama bin laden. reauthorize the violence against women in a vote, 78-22. all 22 votes were republican men. every female senator supported the bill. now it goes to the house. in case there's any doubt, elizabeth warren is going to be an asset. after her election in november there was discussion of whether she would be assigned to it. well, at her very first hearing were a number of banking regulators, she showed just why she deserves to be up on the dance. >> the question i really want to ask is about how tough you are, about how much leverage you really have in these settlements and what i would like to know is tell me a little bit about the last few times you have taken the biggest financial
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institutions on wall street all the way to a trial. >> they didn't have a lot of answers to that. the crisis that has truth to it is the idea that existing regulations could have don a lot to prevent the crisis. it was regulatory capture and them to not adequately do their jobs. elizabeth warren understands the dynamics of too big to fail and the cost it imposes. finally, you should know the world lost an intel lecture this week a legal philosopher. he died on thursday of leukemia, he was 81. he devoted his life about the good life, the role, the law of the constitution of the state without trampling liberty. "the new york times" described it as dashing, witty.
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i want to find out what my guests think we should know for the week coming up beginning with you, jen. what should we know? >> on the subject of less, two things, february 27th, the supreme court is hearing the case of whether or not states can collect the dna of arrestees. they collect the dna of those who have been convicted or can you collect the dna of those enlisted. answers to questions so the intelligence committee acknowledged they have reviewed the question of a secret court to review -- >> to deal with it. something like a fisa court. james. >> this is something we talked about, look forward to doing it more. the middle class is getting harder, not easier to define. it's got a great info graphic. using the rule of thumb that
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most researchers use to define middle class, middle 60%, the average is $140,000 of income. it's more and more irresponsible to demagogue on the way we do. we have to think harder about the dangerous possibilities by treating the middle class as if it's a monologue. >> bond is willing to go to jail for climate change. naacp has a climate justice program. whether it's voting rights or climate change they are working together to protect your basic rights. >> people ask what can i do to tackle climate change. one, everyone needs to contact their senators and tell them to sponsor the climate act by senators sanders and boxer. second, contact the white house and tell the president to start using his authority under the
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environmental protection agency to regulate greenhouse gas emissions. >> you have been a veteran of legislative battles on climate specifically. is there a change in grass roots mobilization to turn on to mobilize than ten years ago? >> absolutely. technology enabled that. it's also the coalitions of a lot of different types of organizations that have come together around climate change and i think it's really an understanding that the cynicism being pedalled isn't working anymore on the american people. i'm proud of the american people for recognizing that. >> i was talking yesterday about that. i referenced the book by albert hershman and the reactorry arguments. you get the one that is are going to cost jobs. we are skipping to the most cynical. the argument i see more and more coming from the right is we are screwed either way.
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you see a jump to denial to saying well, it's happening. we can't control the weather. i think it's important to remind people we actually can control it. i want to thank my guests, jen, james, a treat to have you here on the east coast. ben and tieson. thank you for joining us. we'll be back next weekend saturday and sunday at 8:00. next is melissa harry-perry. what's funny, hilarious and over the line. race jokes. that's going to be interesting. the one-year anniversary show. we will see you next week, here on "up." i have low testosterone. there, i said it.
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